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"Using Invisible Watermarks to Disrupt Piracy"


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About this Lesson

  • Type: Video Tutorial
  • Length: 34:55
  • Media: Video/mp4
  • Use: Watch Online & Download
  • Access Period: Unrestricted
  • Download: MP4 (iPod compatible)
  • Size: 225 MB
  • Posted: 01/05/2011

Fighting piracy involves education, legislation, enforcement and deterrence. The arsenal of weapons the industry uses includes invisible watermarks that enable forensic specialists to track the content from authorized to unauthorized environments. The industry also employ undetectable audio watermarks that disrupt the playback of pirate-manufactured DVDs on certain consumer electronic devices.

Patrick Gregston will discuss the history of watermarking to protect copyright holders and how modern updates to this technique are helping the filmed entertainment industry battle piracy in the 21st century.

Supplementary Files

About this Author

The Business of Entertainment LLC
The Business of Entertainment LLC
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The Business of Entertainment LLC (BOE) is an educational courseware production company focused on the media and entertainment industry. With headquarters near Hollywood in Burbank, California, BOE produces lecture and networking events where media students and independent producers interact with studio executives, post production and production practitioners who conduct the business of show business.

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Patrick Gregston, that’s me. These are all the things that I have done. The many hats that I’ve worn in this industry. I don’t think I’m done with my job descriptions yet. These are the labels that are on these hats today. Ceilings Unlimited is my own production company. I just produced a film on climate change for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Go to and download or buy the DVD, please.

USA Interactive is really the thing most related to what I’m talking about today. They are a digital watermarking technology company. Neil Pickus is the body that holds patents. I have my name on something we call – Non-Linear Production and Distribution.

I’m going to start by telling you that piracy is a really old problem. In fact piracy actually could be sort of described as the origins of Hollywood. Patent companies, which was Edison’s idea was an attempt to keep everything that was made under the control of the people who held the patents and owned the companies. Hollywood and most of what we think of as the business today were people who didn’t want to pay that royalty. So, they did a variety of strategies and the least of which was they came to California and tried to stay out of the reach of the patent companies.

So, piracy, the idea that there is a technology or a right that is held by some and that others attempt to escape is actually endemic and original to our business. There’s no really separating it. Once that’s set of people, if we think of now, as the founders of the Hollywood model, organized their own business, there was thievery then. In those days, the only thievery was… you’d still a print. If you had a lab, you might borrow a print and make an illegal copy, but it was still basically that you had to have a print because there was no other way really to sell the experience of a movie except have a print that then you could put in the theater and it could even be a store front that you just threw a sheet up in. But it was still… you had to have a print.

Print piracy has always been kind of an inside job. That’s persisted also through the years. I remember when I first started working in this business, one of the jobs I had was in a lab down in Hollywood called CFI and we would work in little dark rooms and every once in a while we’d go outside and take a break. There would be trucks in the parking lot full of cans of print. I remember one day they were loading one of those trucks and I asked the guy – hey, that’s a current release. Oh, yeah, but this is salvage. I’m thinking – there’s no way a current print is going salvage. No, that current print is going to some market where the studio won’t see any of the revenue.

It’s a very old problem. Today, it’s based on what you can’t really see to well here… files. The thing about files is – its really different then stealing a print is that when somebody steals a print, that was actually an asset that the owner could’ve put in a theater and made money with. Today, when they steal a file, the studio still has it’s file and can keep making money with it. This is one of the main distinctions about piracy today that we’ll get to in a moment.

Watermarks, also aren’t new. They’ve been around a long time. It’s only recently though that they’ve been brought to this business to address the issue of piracy.

First of all, I want to define piracy. It’s not just as I said the distinction of taking something, you know, when we think of pirates in the traditional sense, those are guys that board your ship and take you and maybe your life and certainly what’s on your boat. The current pirate doesn’t necessarily take anybody’s stuff. They make unauthorized use of your stuff. Whatever your content might be, they take it, package it and deliver it in a way that benefits them and not you. So, it’s use outside license.

Now, it also has to be a use outside license where it’s derived from that license, otherwise there’s no chain of custody where you can claim any loss. Okay, so if a studio hasn’t maintained it’s license, hasn’t maintain, you know, good fence around it’s property, somebody stealing it isn’t really going to be a crime. It might cost the studio some value, but it’s not necessarily something that we can call piracy under the way it’s interpreted today, particularly in the law.

The other thing that’s really interesting is that piracy doesn’t require a transaction to have occurred. People will steal your files and they’ll put it up and they’ll use it to drive you to buy something else. So, if you can go see Avatar for free online, and they happen to catch your eye and you read and ad or click on an ad, that’s where they make their money. The transaction doesn’t have to be for that piece of property for it to constitute piracy as it’s interpreted and understood in the courts today.

That’s why the RIAA can go after some mom who’s just downloaded some music. She’s still stealing even though she didn’t necessarily participate in a transaction.

Now, defining watermarks is a little more difficult because watermark is a really old concept. They began in the 13th century. They were used because paper makers needed to distinguish their paper from another guy’s paper. It had to be visible. Sometimes they were symbols. Sometimes they were actually the initial of the water marker. They were used mainly to say – this is my product. Or, this is how good my product is compared to somebody else’s.

Most interesting enough, water was not used to make them. Water was used to make the paper and while the paper was still wet, they would put them in forms that would have little wires that would make the image. It was the chemistry of the paper drying that created the watermark.

Let’s move on. There we go. Today, in the 20th century technology of watermarks, watermarks are not visible. Their purpose is to be invisible. They do not make images. They are usually hexadecimal numbers. Sometimes they’re just regular numbers. They’re rarely actual information that the human can understand or interpret. They are usually used in the form of what are called keys. The key is something that points you at a database that tells you who owned this, who was in the transaction, what are the rights that are related and so on.

Plus, they’re not actually in the images. When we mostly think of watermarks, we think of what’s on paper. You have an image. Somebody put a watermark in the middle of that image. We’re going to look at pictures that have watermarks, but the watermarks are in the signal that generates the picture.

There are a lot of different technologies in use today. None of them are intended to make any image change at all, in fact, that’s one of the key things that we look for in watermarks is that they don’t alter the image visible to the audience at all.

Another really important thing is what our watermarks aren’t. So, in the current conversation about security of content, there are a lot of different technologies and watermarks are not digital rights management. Digital rights management are things, you know, when you have to sign in and validate yourself at a website. You have a password, or you have to be approved by some administrator. Or, you have to show that you have the license to a particular technology. Those are permission schemes. Those are all part of digital rights management.

Another aspect of digital rights management are various kinds of gates. You have to have permissions or the product you have must indicate that it’s legal so that it will pass through a particular piece of software or hardware that’s turned a gate, so you get to see the product.

Fingerprints are another thing that are like watermarks, but they’re not at all. I’m going to give you some examples of most of these things in a moment. I’ll explain fingerprints. But, fingerprints are about identifying an individual thing as opposed to security or theft deterrence.

Here’s an example of a flow chart for a digital rights management scheme. Really important is that it starts there with that thing that’s got a lock, or the content is packaged. This is a key part of the concept of digital rights management. We’re going to keep things secure and we’re going to lock it up. And, at the end of these various sets of steps, you get to see the movie, we’ll say in this case, or whatever that content is. It’s about making sure that you have the right to watch it.

This is how it actually gets interpreted in popular culture. It’s a way to handcuff you, the consumer. There’s nothing about digital rights management that makes it easier for you to have a transaction to get yourself content. It always becomes an extra step along the way while you’re trying to pay for it or download it or buy it in whatever way.

My favorite way to talk about this is to give you the allegory of money. We all know the value of money and we all know that you can go to a bank and get some. If they treated money at banks they way say, the music industry has tried to treat music, you wouldn’t go to banks because it’s inconvenient. And, they wonder why their business has gone down. It’s just a simple little thing. We like things to be easy and we don’t like to be presumed that we’re trying to steal it.

So, here, I’m going to give you an example of fingerprints. Now, you have in this image a lot of iconic recognizable items. Any bit of this gets taken and put into an analyzer of the digital content that makes that image and then we can have that fingerprint, it’s often expressed in sort of… various kinds of math that programmers like to use. But, essentially, if I took that eye image, and I told the program – every time you see that particular fingerprint, flag it for me and call it Avatar.

Well, that’s how they’re doing this at YouTube right now. Why YouTube is essentially Hollywood friendly is that they have a lot of technology to analyze that. So, it doesn’t matter if I shift the roster or if I crop it or if I pull it or I sample it in any way; when that particular fingerprint goes by, it’s going to say – Avatar! Somebody is going to get a report that says – these are the things that you’d better check for Avatar content because we’re going to pay Fox for advertising that gets linked to that clip. Which is how YouTube has become a going business as a opposed to a hole in the ground.

So, fingerprinting is about seeing something like, your fingerprint, and saying – that belongs to so and so. Let’s associate and credit him with it. It has nothing to do with keeping somebody from putting Avatar on YouTube.

Here’s another problem with that though is that this is just the list of ways that you can have a VGA format display. For every single kind of machine that makes an image, LCD screens, the projector here, your screens at home, the projectors in theaters; there are a set of formats that it will produce. Because of that, the way in which the fingerprint can be read is very, very complicated which is why there are so many fingerprinting technologies out there because somebody is trying to figure out… the best mouse trap for fingerprinting has not occurred yet.

So, that’s all about say, watermarking is not that. What watermarking is today is something we call steganography. That is how we hide information. It’s origin is also really ancient. Back in the days when the only way you could actually have communication between heads of state was that somebody went as an Ambassador. Well, that person didn’t get to have the conversation with your corresponding peer and then send them a note back without knowing that the note was going to get read. You could put a seal on it but people figured out how to break and fake seals pretty well. So, they came up with secret writing, hidden writing. Ways to hide things inside other documents. All of this began to become known as something called steganography.

These are all the things that thru the years steganography has been really, really used for. It’s only in the last 30 years that it’s come of interest in this area called Data Protection. By the way, everything that’s in a file is considered data, so when we have a movie that’s a file, it too is data. One of the interesting things about it is watermarked, you know, digitally watermarked item today, there isn’t anything to see. What’s on the left is unmarked and what’s on the right is marked and in an ideal scenario, you can’t tell the difference.

Like, people with really, really good eyes shouldn’t be able to tell the difference because the image shouldn’t be there. Now, that’s not to say that we haven’t used watermark ideas where we do put things in the picture and I’ll cover that detail in a moment. But, for the main, and I mean, 95% of how we think of digital watermarks today, it’s about making it invisible, and it’s about being able to have a machine look at the image and extract information and tell us – is that a legal use or not.

The qualities in watermark today, first and foremost, must be transparent. We spend millions and hundreds of millions of dollars to make beautiful pictures and we don’t want anybody screwing them up. So, first and foremost, it can’t do anything to the quality of the product.

Second, it must be robust. Now, robust means that it’s really hard for people to take it apart or remove it or disable it in anyway. The main thing here are the classic examples of what we call the analog hole. You heard them talk today about people capturing films in theaters. Well, that’s a pretty ideal way because your eye looks at a screen, what possible invisible information could you be gleaning from that? What could be captured by another camera that would then be read by a machine?

Well, it turns out there are a lot of really cool technologies that will pass from an image projected on a screen into another machine and still be readable. It’s very magical and it’s very cool. It’s expected that it will drive pirates crazy once they actually start getting busted in any sort of widespread way.

The other thing about it is a light weight pay load. If we have a typical DVD at 4.7 gigabytes, how much of that must be used to add a watermark? Well, we currently talk about it in terms of kilobytes per gigabyte, which is a pretty small amount. The other thing that must be light weight is the amount of time and energy that it takes to put this information into the signal. That’s expressed in – how many more cycles of my server will it require to watermark that before I serve it up to the paying customer?

And, the last one they call inscrutable. It shouldn’t be something that anybody then can read. If you’re at a studio and you’re using watermarks to mark everyone of your transactions, you don’t want that data available to anybody else. So, as a company that provides watermarks, we’re… you know, USA Interactive doesn’t want to know who our customer’s customers are. We want that information to be in their hands. That’s more appropriate where that information is. So, inscrutable means that it’s readable by the content, copyright owner. It’s available for them to use and we’ll talk about what those uses are in a moment. But, it can’t really be read by anybody else.

There’s a competitor company out there called Baramatrix. They make a neat little product that actually creates a machine readable output. You can actually see the key number on a screen after you’ve run it through the reader. But, it’s just a number. If you don’t have the database, the numbers to it, you don’t really have any true information. So, those are the things that we’re currently looking for in products.

So, what do you do when you have a digital watermark? Well, you can try and prevent, or you can try and enforce. So, we’ll go through the prohibition idea. Anybody here ever lived through a prohibition? You don’t know it, but you’re living in one right now. You’re prohibited from all sorts of things, particularly around content and it’s all in an attempt to stop you from stealing.

The classic thing that was said by a representative of the MPAA, about 8 or 9 years ago was – we’re just trying to keep honest people honest. Anybody in here who’s not honest? Or, you’re all offended by that statement, I hope, right?

So, it’s really a remarkable thing that we start off with this strategy that assumes our customers are thieves. And, guess what the results are? Well, actually, we are either thieves or we don’t buy from people that are suspicious of us. But, the primary thing that happens is that we are in the business on the prohibition side of preventing people from doing transactions.

So, while there are some people who might use all this magic that way… the company I worked with and a couple others really look at the enforcement side. The enforcement side, the catch phrase we use is – You had better prove to catch crooks. ‘Cause what we really hear about are the people who steal and make money that the content owner then can’t actually make. That requires a chain of custody.

Now, chain of custody is a legal term which… and for which watermarks had been approved or endorsed by case law. That can be used to prosecute a person. Then, once they are prosecuted, they can actually be punished. The goal of all of those is to make it easy for you to get the content that you want. So, it’s a distinct difference.

Prevention is about – don’t let you do stuff. Enforcement is about – let you do stuff, but we’re going to bust people who don’t do it legally.

Now, in order to be inside the legal domain, you have to be able to be what’s called Forensic. So, we’re all familiar with TV shows about forensic police work, well, that’s because the work has to go to court. Forensic has nothing to do with microscopes, it has to do with it goes to court, and it has a legal use. In the matter of content, there must be a monstrous chain of custody.

In other words, there must have been somewhere where this material, this content was licensed for use. How many of you when you buy a DVD think you own the movie? Oh, you do. Okay. Nobody else here. You’re all educated. Well, many people in this culture do think they own the movie because they own a piece of plastic. But, if you were to read the fine print, what you own is a license to enjoy the content that’s on that piece of plastic.

So, the chain of custody is an ability to say how a piece of content has been licensed as it’s moved through the chain of retail transactions, or whatever transactions. So, in the case of a post production company, they have a license to do the work they’re supposed to do and hand it back. They don’t have a license to slip it out the side door and sell it to a guy that’s going to duplicate it and sell it on the streets of downtown Los Angeles. It must reference a licensed use.

In other words, when I see a copyright record, or when I see a key and I go to the database for that watermark. I see that key. There must be a licensed authorize use or I don’t have a chain of custody that I can go back to that and say – this is where it crossed the line from legitimate use to illegitimate use.

Then, the other thing we do with watermarks is when they show up outside go – that, that’s a legal piece being sold in an illegal way. Then we have the ability to actually prosecute the person who stole, or prosecute the people who are using stolen material.

So, one of the challenges that we have in the areas of content is it’s not property like your diamond ring, your good watch, your car. It’s an idea. It’s an experience. And, how do you prove somebody stole that from somebody else. Providing that experience is the business of the theater owners. Some theater owners decide to access that experience a different way, they’re then criminal. Proving that becomes a difficult set of challenges. We’ll get to that in a moment as well.

So, here are the results that we’ve seen. On the prevention side, there’s been no reduction of piracy. We’ve got 15 really good hard years where we’ve spent a lot of money and there is just been… you know, what we have out there right now is proven audience of about 50 million people, who are happy to steal. They are an established marketplace.

What we also did as an industry is we exported the costs. Today when you buy a DVD player, within it’s little chips and circuits are a set of gates and technologies to actually… for instance, to have a region 2 DVD and you move to region 1, well, you’re not going to be able to play it anymore because the little dumb machine that works in that new territory knows the difference.

We made the consumer electronics and the IT industries pay for all that technology. The motion picture industry because it has content control, successfully lobbied those guys in to doing all the work and spending all the money to make those schemes work. That didn’t make us really popular, but they did it anyhow because they want to be able to leverage what Hollywood has.

The result is that the DVD player that you buy today isn’t as functional in terms of it’s capabilities as a DVD player you might’ve bought the first year they came out. You’re paying less for them. But, you’d pay even less if we hadn’t exported the cost, and they would do more if we hadn’t put these things into them.

The result of that is – well, there’s a lot of people today that think its fun to hack and tweak the noses of large multinational corporations. So, you… we’ve created an inspired a set of opponents. That in turn has led to a lot of negative publicity. Those would be bad enough but then we go out and we sue mom and pop for actually having our stuff on our desktops.

That in turn, has meant we’ve alienated a few of our customers. One of my favorite examples is when… VHS became a dominant format, the brand Disney was a trusted name. Today, you can find people who will vilify Disney because they’ve actually sued schools for putting picture of Mickey Mouse on their Kindergarten walls. Okay.

It’s been a terrible chain of events and it’s not that they shouldn’t own Mickey Mouse, it’s just how they’ve gone about enforcing it. And, there you go. Enforcement. So, we have some arrests. We have some exclusions. Exclusion means we have to go back and face the music and the fact is that a certain percentage of theft comes from within our own business.

So, when you discover that the DVD duplicator is actually duplicating a few extra 10,000 on the side and selling them; you not only have the problem that the person is stealing from you, you have the problem of getting rid of them and replacing their capacity in your supply chain.

If you were dependent on every DVD replicator out there to get your product in a wide release, can you afford to get rid of that? Can you afford to eliminate what has been an important part of how you make money? So, a very difficult thing that challenges our industry is – how do we actually bust the pirates that are within our own sector?

Then, we have these questions. We don’t know what will happen. I know with the clients we have currently, people have been getting busted, but they do not want to tell the world. Our model is – you tell everybody. That guy there stole from us and here he is going to jail or here he is paying or he’s loosing his business or whatever it is as a way to disincentive other people.

That hasn’t been industry policy. The policy has been – let’s keep it a secret. It’s all hush, hush. It’s like spy stuff. We’re very frustrated by the fact that the industry doesn’t understand the collateral values to say – we’re busting real criminals as opposed to moms and pops.

Here are the challenges. We’re dependent upon external systems. The first is that as movie industry, we have to put our product through other people’s systems in order to reach audiences. Since we no longer own the entire chain that delivers it up, we are depending on other people. So, the other people must also secure it.

So, back in the old days, that meant the projectionist has to be honest. The projectionist can’t slip the reel out in the middle of the night, have it duplicated at the friend’s lab and then have it back the next day. Today that means that the same person, the projectionist, doesn’t give somebody access to the booth where they set up the camera and let them plug straight into the audio so that they don’t have anybody whispering in the theater.

We’re not just dependent upon those external systems, we’re also dependent on the fact that law enforcement today has a lot of problems. They’ve got a lot of issues, and they don’t necessarily think that copyright infringement of movies is a big issue.

In the City of Los Angeles, the guy in charge of movie theft is on the vice squad. So, on any given day he can go – should I walk the streets of Hollywood, or should I go downtown and find people with pirated DVDs? Which one is really more an issue of public safety? The FBI unit that’s stationed in Westwood in the Federal Building. They’ve got a long list of things of which this is just one to do. So, we have that issue.

The second is the courts. To go to court to enforce your copyright, you need the cooperation of a prosecuting attorney. So, you have to have resources of the court, the system that’s supposed to adjudicate and impart justice… and you have to do everything you can to push a case through. That’s just domestically.

In international law, you have countries that have no real understanding of copyright. They don’t have laws that enforce copyright the same way that we do here.

Then you have the public perception which at the end of the day is – you guys make a lot of money. You know, why should I be worried about you? George Clooney is doing fine.

So, we have these mini challenges about this. I want go back to this external system issue because many of the external systems are within our industry. A big deal was made because, oh, 10 years ago, some people that actually worked at a duplicating facility, actually got prosecuted and actually gone to prison. Okay. The company that employed those guys had almost two years of lag in business because nobody wanted to go to them. But, they’d already proven that they’d bust their own employees. It should’ve made people more confident in that company and instead, it worked the other way around.

So, within our own industry, we have a very poor understanding of the value of keeping a respect of copyright. The most famous case in the last year, Wolverine. The Wolverine version that hit the internet ahead of release came right out of post production. That was clearly an inside job, there was no way that was a camcorder. Nobody has been busted yet.

If we had ubiquitous watermarking where every time a copy of the file went out, the moment it hit the internet you could’ve gone back to the person’s desk it came from and gone – so, you’re either going to be out of this business or you’re going to tell us who you sold it to. Then, suddenly people’s careers would be on the line to keep the content they work on secure. But, that’s not true today and we’re not sure when it’s going to happen.

So, what would we get if Hollywood actually took a ubiquitous watermarking approach and took an enforcement approach? Well, the first thing is that we’d have access to 50 million new customers. Now, some of those people are never going to want to buy, they steal because they like to steal. They’re cheap. They’re broke. Whatever.

But, it would also mean that some of them, we could make it easier for them to get the movies then if they didn’t… went through… anybody here actually ever run bit torrent? Anybody ever set up and do a download? Yeah. Did it take some time? Would you like if it had been easier.

There you go. So, it’s not that it’s illegal, but if you go to steal that way, you’d have to go and like download something, you’ll get the little warning that says – this isn’t certified software, da, da, da, da.

So, there would be this chunk of market that the healthcare companies just got. You know, it’d be like 40 million new people that you could sell your products to. There would be new markets. There are people that we do not reach currently. People who do not go to the theater. People who will not watch a movie on television. They’ll watch a movie on a computer. They’ll watch a movie on a cell phone.

So, there are new markets emerging that we have to use file based stuff to go to. We must come up with a way to be secure. And right now, we can’t access them.

Then we have new channels through existing markets. We’re moving towards technology that will enable you to disconnect your cable and through your internet connection get all the things you currently get as TV. All of them are going to be ripe with new opportunities for people to steal and we need a way to secure this.

In fact, the widest use of watermarking today is in tracking or putting a watermarking in at the set top box with the cable companies. We’re going to have to be able to do that for websites, or other channels such as Hulu. Currently we don’t.

And, probably the most significant thing is – that if a company actually gets in the business of delivering you files and giving you a personal watermark, they’re going to know a lot about you and what you like to watch. They’re going to get to ask you. They’re going to be able to establish a personal relationship and have much more targeted marketing. They’re going to be able to say – gee, what kind of products… who are the 25 million people that want to see this movie before we make it. As opposed to what they do now, which is at best a lot of guessing.

So, these are the fundamental things I can tell you. We can go back and hit everyone of these slides and I can spend a lot more time with you about specific technologies, but I’m going to tell you that the fundamental concept is that we want to enable transactions. We want to put proof in through watermarks that allows us to bust people who actually steal. That’s the real idea behind watermarking today.

Most of what you’re seeing out there in security today is about prevention. I’m going to tell you a little story. I was involved, it will be 2 ½ years ago now with a man who was accredited with putting all of the industry on DVDs. He got all the major studios to agree. His name is Warren [inaudible 30:57]. Warren has an idea that he’s been trying to promote now for almost five years to create the home video window.

So, the window is… we put in the theater, that’s the flagship market. Then, the next window is DVDs. Then the next window is cable. So, there’s these windows. Warren has this idea that between the release and the movies and the release and the DVD, there could be a six week period in which you and any of the other people who have spent the average of $3000 on their home theater could have a weekend license for say, $20. You would get a high quality file delivered to you that you could watch inside that window.

Now, it’s based on the CE industry sales of home theaters that that is several hundred million dollar market on an annual basis. A new market. People who are early buyers of the DVDs. Yes, you’d be ruining the DVD, but you’d be making more money on them by giving them the earliest opportunity and there are those people that just love to own things anyhow, so they are just going to buy the DVD too if they like it.

Now, the problem is – how do you deliver a file? So, I always… one of the pieces of intellectual property I own is a way to use peer to peer networks to actually make things more secure because what they do is the atomize and they move things around.

So, I’m in a conversation with a man who was at one studio and now is at another studio as the Chief of Technology and we had a very productive 45 minute conversation about what it is to implement these technologies. Then, in sort of a reflective moment, he goes, you know, I really just wish I could do my ideal delivery. I go – what’s that? He goes – oh, you know, pick the people up at their house, strip them naked, put a blindfold on them, drive them in an armored car to the theater. Let them watch the movie. Put their clothes back on them and send them home. I said – why do you think that’s ideal? He said – well, there’s no way they could capture that.

Okay. This idea of inconveniencing you… this is a person that was running technology at a studio and he had this incredibly impossible fantasy of how he would actually make content secure. This is only a couple of years ago and he’s still working in a studio in the same capacity. All right. I don’t know that his fantasy has changed at all. I know that the engineer that I had on the line hung up in the middle of the story. Because, as he said to me later – that guy is never going to get it.

We have this dynamic inside the business right now of people who are still scared to death of files, and people for whom the see the future as files. And, that dynamic is constantly being played out in daily meetings. Over all sorts of little issues and we don’t know where it’s going to go.

You know, when I meet people who want to talk about the watermarking market, they’re like – what do you think? I go – I think it’s the only way for us to rationally to embrace the digital networked world. Well, when is it going to happen? I have no idea. This is a cultural change.

One of the problems in Hollywood is that it’s been wrong about a lot of stuff that has then made it money. Piracy is no different. It’s really wrong about piracy. It has spent years saying – we’re not going to do what those dumb guys in the music business did. And then, it’s done exactly what those guys did. And wonder why it hasn’t gotten a different result.

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